Discover the tools to navigate the stormy waters of high-conflict divorces and post-separation abuse alongside Rachel Snow, a seasoned divorce and custody coach who has personally weathered a 13-year journey of complex legal battles and emotional turmoil.
Throughout this transformative episode, we delve into the intricacies of family court encounters with abusive exes, unmasking the emotional and financial hurdles that often go unseen.
By tuning in, you're signing up for a masterclass in safeguarding your interests and, more importantly, your children's wellbeing in the throes of conflict.
The path through a high-conflict separation can be fraught with isolation, but forming a support system is a beacon of hope.
In this conversation, we dissect the challenges of co-parenting with a high-conflict ex-partner and the significance of crafting a detailed parenting plan. We lay bare the patterns of people-pleasing behaviors and stress the importance of a support team, including a trauma-informed therapist or coach, an attorney, and a financial analyst. These insights will arm you with the knowledge to maintain your emotional equilibrium and financial stability, ensuring you don’t navigate this journey alone.
Finally, you'll learn the importance of cutting emotional ties to material possession, as well as the power of somatic practices in managing emotional triggers.
As the conversation culminates, we examine the challenges posed by familial dynamics in court, especially in cases involving parents with narcissistic traits, offering a glimmer of hope as we spotlight the progress being made towards better legal recognition of emotional and psychological abuse.
Join us for a heartfelt episode that's both a lifeline and a roadmap for anyone embarking on the road to healing from a high-conflict divorce.
Ways to connect with Rachel:
Website: https://www.luminarydivorcecoaching.com/
Social Media: @luminarydivorcecoaching
________________________
Corissa is a Somatic Trauma-Informed Relationship Coach™ & Narcissistic Abuse Specialist ™ who empowers women after they’ve endured narcissist trauma to rediscover who they are, reclaim their power and find the clarity and courage to move forward and live a life they love. Corissa is also a recovering people-pleaser and codependent who has endured way too many narcissistic relationships to count! She coaches not only from her knowledge and training but also from the wisdom she has gained from her own healing journey.
Book a FREE 30-minute Confidential Clarity Call HERE.
Ways to connect with Corissa:
Podcast Website
Website: www.corissastepp.com
Community: StrongHER
Instagram: @corissastepp
Facebook: Corissa Stepp
We'd love to hear what you think so leave a voice message on our Podcast Website. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, review, or share it so we can reach more people!
1
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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Stepping into Meaningful
00:00:06
Relationships podcast.
00:00:07
I'm your host, carissa Stepp.
00:00:09
I'm a somatic, trauma-informed coach and narcissistic abuse
00:00:13
specialist.
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This is a podcast for you if you are looking to improve your
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most important relationship, the one you have with yourself, so
00:00:21
you can more meaningfully and deeply connect with those around
00:00:24
you.
00:00:24
This podcast will equip you with valuable tools, tips and
00:00:29
tricks essential for recovering from toxic relationships and
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guide you towards cultivating healthy, fulfilling and intimate
00:00:36
connections with others.
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But first, let's start with you .
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I'm so excited you're here taking this powerful step
00:00:43
forward.
00:00:43
Thank you for tuning in.
00:00:45
Now let's get to today's episode.
00:00:47
Hey, hey, everyone.
00:00:54
Welcome back to another episode of Stepping into Meaningful
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Relationships.
00:00:57
Today I am having the pleasure of chatting with Rachel Snow,
00:01:02
who is a divorce and custody coach specializing in
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post-separation abuse and high-conflict cases.
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She really understands what her clients face when dealing with
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an abusive ex, because she's been dealing with
00:01:13
post-separation abuse for 13 years.
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Rachel's also a mother to a 17-year-old daughter who she
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mostly single parents.
00:01:20
So I am so excited, rachel, to have you on as a guest to chat
00:01:25
today about how we can protect ourselves, when we are dealing
00:01:30
with high-conflict divorces, from toxic people in our lives.
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It feels like so many of us kind of go through the process
00:01:38
feeling very much alone and very confused and not really knowing
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who to reach out to for support .
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So I love that you're doing this work in the world and I'm
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excited to kind of pick your brain for this conversation so
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welcome.
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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
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I'm so excited to be here.
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Speaker 1: When we talk about high-conflict divorce, what does
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that look and feel like?
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Because not everyone may even understand what that is,
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especially if it's not something that they've experienced before
00:02:04
.
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Speaker 2: Well, I think what happens in family court is
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family court will diagnose a case as high conflict, but it's
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not both parties that are high conflict.
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It takes one person to make the divorce a high-conflict divorce
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or the custody situation to be high conflict because of one
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person, and typically the high-conflict individual is
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abusive in some way.
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So it could have been physical abuse and a lot of what we're
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seeing now is coercive control abuse, and so we're seeing more
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mental, emotional, spiritual, verbal abuse, and that person,
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the abuser, is the one that makes it high conflict.
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So it's really unfortunate that we have this title, or a
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divorce will be labeled high conflict when it's not both
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people, it's one abuser and it's one safe parent trying to do
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everything they possibly can to keep them and their children
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safe.
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And because family court and the judges are completely
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uneducated with what happens with domestic violence, they
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just lump them into one category .
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and for my listeners who have been in
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relationships with, we'll say, narcissists, they very much can
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probably understand how that even in the unraveling of the
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relationship and going through that process, that of course the
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abuse may not necessarily stop just because you've decided to
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move forward with the process of ending that relationship
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legally.
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And the fact that you've been enduring post-separation abuse
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for 13 years I mean that's a really long time to endure
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something like that.
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But I imagine that you've probably learned a lot of
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strategies to deal with that to help you maintain your sanity.
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Speaker 2: It's been a wild ride .
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So we split up when my daughter was almost four.
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We split up in August of 2010 and she turned four in September
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of 2010.
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So she was really little and the nutshell of our marriage was
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.
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It was pretty boring, dull boring.
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There wasn't abuse, we didn't fight a lot.
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But as soon as we separated it was like something flipped and
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he just turned into this totally different person.
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So I didn't know what I was dealing with until about 2013,
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2014.
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So we separated in 2010.
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Our divorce was final in 2011.
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He attempted to take custody of her in 2012.
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It was denied and we never had 50-50.
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I was always the primary parent , and so the post-separation
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abuse was financial abuse refusing to reimburse for things
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, refusing to pay for daycare, refusing to buy school supplies,
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refusing to buy winter coats, refusing to help with anything.
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I had actually filed for child support before anything was
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filed for divorce because he was refusing to help out in any way
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and I had to do something.
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So we've modified child support a million times since 2010
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because every time I did a new week out of raise I had to
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modify.
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And then another piece of post-separation abuse.
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I have the post-separation abuse wheel.
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I don't have it in front of me but people don't even know
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that's a thing until I send it to my clients and they're like
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what?
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Yes, all of these things.
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So part of the post-separation abuse is legal abuse, which can
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be when they file motion after motion after motion with the
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court.
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And that's what I've experienced is he was constantly
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filing motions to modify parenting.
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He's tried to take custody twice.
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It's been denied.
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He filed contempt on me.
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He wanted me in jail and it's been bizarre.
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So I've made a ton of mistakes because I didn't know what I was
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dealing with, I didn't have the support, I didn't have people
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that understood what I was going through.
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They very much wanted to understand what happened and why
00:06:57
he was acting like this all of a sudden and it wasn't until I
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found one mom's battle on Facebook and started following
00:07:07
that that I realized oh, there's thousands, maybe millions of
00:07:13
other women experiencing this.
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That was the first time I had heard narcissistic abuse.
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I was like what is that?
00:07:20
And so once I finally found that page and felt like I had
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some support, it started to make sense and pieces kind of fell
00:07:30
into place.
00:07:31
And not to say that he has NPD, because I'm not a psychologist,
00:07:35
but I do know what I was experiencing and I do know the
00:07:39
truth of the matter was it was abuse and it was aimed at me,
00:07:45
but it was really harming our child.
00:07:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like.
00:07:49
The worst part is that the children become like the
00:07:51
collateral damage and the crossfire of all this.
00:07:54
If your daughter is the most important thing to you, he's
00:07:57
going to use her as a pawn, as a way to get you to succumb to
00:08:02
his will right To continue to exert some sort of control.
00:08:07
So when you mentioned that you didn't even realize or didn't
00:08:10
really experience the abuse until after the separation, were
00:08:15
there red flags beforehand that the abuse may have been going
00:08:21
on in the actual relationship before it ended?
00:08:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, did I miss all these red flags and all
00:08:28
these pieces?
00:08:29
And I've examined that a lot over the years.
00:08:33
I'm an overthinker, I'm anxiety , so of course I'm like, did I
00:08:38
miss something?
00:08:38
Was there something there that I didn't see?
00:08:40
I thought I was savvy with identifying red flags, but I
00:08:47
wasn't, and I still don't know that there was much there that
00:08:52
he was doing that was a red flag .
00:08:55
Now he was pretty complacent, Like he wouldn't fight with me,
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and so you know I want to have a discussion, but he would never
00:09:06
have those hard conversations with me.
00:09:08
So I think that's a red flag.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no emotional safety or intimacy in
00:09:14
that relationship if you can't have those hard conversations.
00:09:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I've again like, of course, I
00:09:21
think like where did I go wrong, what did I do?
00:09:25
And I wanted to take responsibility, because it's my
00:09:28
nature to take responsibility for my part.
00:09:30
So I do know that I settled.
00:09:35
I was really young, like we were really young.
00:09:40
We had no business getting married.
00:09:41
We met when we were 23.
00:09:43
We got married in 2005, but we were 24.
00:09:50
And then in 2006 is when my daughter was born, and so
00:09:54
everything happened really fast and we never built a foundation
00:10:00
for our relationship.
00:10:01
And then, yes, there was a.
00:10:03
There was red flags.
00:10:04
Now that I see them, now that I'm in my 40s, so what the red
00:10:08
flag was?
00:10:09
He was going through a divorce, he had been in Iraq and he was
00:10:19
army, and so his unit was one of the first to go into Iraq after
00:10:24
9-11.
00:10:25
And so I know he suffers from PTSD.
00:10:29
So there's, of course, that part of me that can completely
00:10:33
empathize, sympathize that he went through something.
00:10:38
I can't even have him.
00:10:39
However, he didn't want to address the PTSD and he didn't
00:10:45
want to get help and he didn't want to go to therapy, and I
00:10:49
think that's part of what shut him down.
00:10:51
And I don't know.
00:10:56
You know I'm guessing, like I'm making assumptions, which we
00:10:59
shouldn't do, but when you don't get any answers, you guess and
00:11:03
you make assumptions.
00:11:04
So, yeah, looking back, it's like, oh, don't get involved
00:11:09
with a man going through a divorce, and military is one of
00:11:16
the careers that is typically very, extremely abusive, and so
00:11:24
it's military, police officers, firefighters, attorneys, doctors
00:11:31
, pilots and it's where they have this importance.
00:11:36
You know they're important.
00:11:37
They have a lot of power because of that, and so they
00:11:42
often turn into abusers or they're already abusers.
00:11:45
Speaker 1: We're not making any blankets statements or judgments
00:11:47
, but I could see how potentially those occupations
00:11:52
can attract a certain type of person who has a need for
00:11:55
control.
00:11:56
Speaker 2: It's like with any occupation, right, there's the
00:11:59
small amount that make the whole look bad.
00:12:01
Yeah, so backtracking, yes, there were red flags, but I was
00:12:08
very young.
00:12:09
Nobody that I recall said to me oh, he's married, he's getting
00:12:14
a divorce, he's 23 and that's what's happening.
00:12:18
You should probably run, and I should have, but of course I
00:12:22
wouldn't have my daughter, and so it doesn't matter how much I
00:12:28
look at hindsight or do the shoulda, coulda, woulda, I had
00:12:33
to be in that relationship to have my daughter, because she
00:12:36
wouldn't be her with a different dad.
00:12:38
So that's the blessing that came out of it is I have this
00:12:42
really cool kid.
00:12:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that it's interesting
00:12:49
because, like the podcast episode that I released with
00:12:52
April Porter, one of my friends, we talked a lot about, you know
00:12:56
, grieving those toxic relationships that we get out of
00:13:00
, but part of the grieving process is also coming to a
00:13:03
place of forgiveness and gratitude as well for what we
00:13:07
learned through those experiences.
00:13:09
So, as much as it sucks and as much as it hurts you know, while
00:13:13
you're in it or as you're getting out of it, it really
00:13:16
provides us with an opportunity to sometimes really learn
00:13:21
something about ourselves that we didn't know before.
00:13:24
That's really important for us to understand in order to move
00:13:29
forward and actually create or be who it is that we want to be
00:13:35
or what it is that we want to create in this world and leave
00:13:38
behind as maybe our legacy or have the impact that we're here
00:13:41
to have in this lifetime.
00:13:43
So I love how you have essentially used all of your
00:13:47
pain as a way to now help empower other women so that they
00:13:53
don't make the mistakes that you've made, so that you can
00:13:56
provide the support even that you didn't get to have, and your
00:14:01
whole experience of all of you now get to provide that for
00:14:04
other women, and to me, like that's like a full circle moment
00:14:08
, like that's the reason why.
00:14:10
Speaker 2: Totally, I do say I've said it a lot is.
00:14:13
I want to be for my clients.
00:14:15
What I needed, I needed me there was no me.
00:14:19
I didn't have someone to say, oh , I get it.
00:14:23
I totally understand where you're coming from.
00:14:26
I understand it's crazy making.
00:14:29
I understand.
00:14:31
At the end of the day you feel like you're the crazy one and
00:14:35
you're exhausted and your nervous system is shot and you
00:14:41
don't know which end is up.
00:14:42
You don't know if you should just agree to everything and
00:14:46
sign the papers to be done, and it was so isolating it was.
00:14:53
You know, my friends didn't get it.
00:14:55
We were all young.
00:14:56
My friends are like what the hell is happening?
00:14:59
I don't understand any of this.
00:15:00
Like you guys just got married and had a baby and now all of a
00:15:04
sudden it's like, yeah, we shouldn't have gotten married.
00:15:08
Speaker 1: So, but I think even if your friends are older, I
00:15:10
mean, you know, I'm sure people still wouldn't understand like
00:15:13
wait, like what is he trying to do?
00:15:14
I don't understand.
00:15:15
That's not who.
00:15:16
I thought he was right Because a lot of times, even in these
00:15:19
relationships, like you know, people don't see the side of.
00:15:23
They didn't see the side of your acts that you experienced
00:15:26
behind closed doors.
00:15:28
So they just don't understand that it's even possible for
00:15:31
someone to maybe even be behaving in that way or to be so
00:15:35
calculated in how they're trying to manipulate the system
00:15:39
or to manipulate you.
00:15:40
Speaker 2: Yes, and I've known numerous women who they just say
00:15:45
I just want it over.
00:15:46
And I can say I understand and it will be, but you're still
00:15:53
going to have to deal with him until your children age out of
00:15:56
the system.
00:15:56
And so let's make sure that you are requesting the things that
00:16:05
you need to support you.
00:16:06
Let's make sure that your parenting plan is rock solid
00:16:11
until your children age out of the system so that when they
00:16:16
start middle school or high school, we're not running into
00:16:20
who pays for extracurricular activities?
00:16:22
Yeah, or oh, they're driving.
00:16:25
Who pays for driving school Because they have to do that?
00:16:29
And or the car.
00:16:30
Then there's a car, then there's insurance, there's all
00:16:33
these other things, and so it's just, I think, human nature.
00:16:38
We get very focused on the here and now, and unless you have
00:16:41
somebody by your side to say so, what do you want it to look
00:16:45
like in five years?
00:16:45
You know, in five years your kids are going to be 10 and 12.
00:16:50
What's that going to look like?
00:16:52
And until they have someone to talk them through that, they're
00:16:56
not thinking about it.
00:16:57
They want to say yes to everything, to have it be over,
00:17:01
and I strongly suggest they don't do that.
00:17:04
Don't say yes to everything and this is what we figure out when
00:17:09
they work with me is let's brainstorm together, let's
00:17:14
figure out the best possible outcome and the worst possible
00:17:18
outcome and let's really focus on you know, if you could wave
00:17:23
your magic wand, what would it look like?
00:17:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that because I feel, like a lot of
00:17:30
times, like one of the reasons or one of our patterns of
00:17:34
behavior that can sometimes lead us into these types of toxic
00:17:38
relationships is people pleasing , and so we will when we feel
00:17:43
unsafe.
00:17:44
There is a tendency to kind of lean back into that people
00:17:47
pleasing behavior in order to stay safe, right, in order to
00:17:51
continue to maybe even protect your children as well if they
00:17:55
are being used as pawns in the process, so that this abuse ends
00:17:59
.
00:17:59
But you know, I've even seen with my clients, even after the
00:18:04
paperwork is even finalized, that abuse can still continue if
00:18:09
you have to have contact with them, which, if you have kids,
00:18:12
surprise, surprise you still have to have contact with your
00:18:15
ex.
00:18:15
And so what do you do in order to minimize that conflict going
00:18:20
forward?
00:18:20
And it is making sure, to your point, that you're setting
00:18:24
yourself up for all of these other little things that are
00:18:26
going to come down the pike, that maybe are hard to see in
00:18:29
the moment, because you're trying to emotionally process
00:18:33
what happened and how you got there and all of that.
00:18:37
Speaker 2: Crazy time.
00:18:39
I mean, if someone's never been divorced, they don't get it.
00:18:43
If they've never dealt with somebody that potentially has a
00:18:46
personality disorder, they don't get it.
00:18:48
And until you're in it or you have someone to tell you, hey,
00:18:53
you need, you need a team, so you can't lone wolf this Getting
00:18:58
a divorce with someone that is creating a very high conflict
00:19:02
situation, you cannot do this alone and you have to create
00:19:08
your team.
00:19:08
You need a therapist that's most likely a trauma informed
00:19:12
therapist, because you're going through trauma.
00:19:15
This is traumatic.
00:19:16
You know you might be coming and you've been through trauma
00:19:21
before you've got to explain.
00:19:23
This is traumatic, but how traumatic was the relationship?
00:19:27
And often I have clients that don't even see that until they
00:19:32
have some separation and they realize I've been walking on
00:19:37
eggshells for 15 years.
00:19:40
I have been saying yes to everything he wanted.
00:19:42
For 15 years I just agreed to keep the peace and so now they
00:19:47
have to figure out who they are without this dictator and it's
00:19:52
terrifying.
00:19:54
And so I want my clients to have a trauma informed therapist
00:19:59
that they're seeing at least weekly in the beginning, if they
00:20:04
can, an attorney so they have legal representation that
00:20:09
understands what they're going through, that this isn't just an
00:20:13
amicable divorce and they're fighting over the dining room
00:20:16
table, that their ex is very high conflict and really wants
00:20:21
to fight about everything.
00:20:22
And then a coach, a consultant, someone that can hold your hand
00:20:29
through this process, and the person that gets it that's me
00:20:34
that can say I totally understand what you're going
00:20:37
through because I've lived it and these are the steps to take
00:20:44
and it's really a collaboration.
00:20:46
We're working together, we're brainstorming together to figure
00:20:49
out what the best strategy is for them and their children and
00:20:53
their family to get through this with some grace and safety,
00:21:02
maybe a little bit of sanity in the end, that they don't feel so
00:21:06
isolated and alone, that they know they have a rock solid team
00:21:10
to support them through this whole process.
00:21:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would probably just add one more team
00:21:18
member to that team and even if this is a cost upfront, it's
00:21:22
going to come back in the end which is hiring a certified
00:21:25
divorce financial analyst just to help you kind of understand
00:21:29
the financial picture, because I often find that women in these
00:21:33
situations there is financial abuse number one and number two
00:21:36
A lot of times they're not even fully aware of all of the assets
00:21:41
, potentially, or even all the liabilities, that are out there.
00:21:44
Because in order for you to make very informed decisions,
00:21:47
it's really important that you have someone working on your
00:21:49
side who can help you do the forensic accounting part of it,
00:21:53
to understand all of the pieces, and then help you even
00:21:57
understand kind of okay, well, what are you entitled to?
00:22:00
But I love all of that.
00:22:01
I just think that that's so helpful because a lot of times
00:22:04
people aren't thinking, well, where am I getting my support
00:22:07
from?
00:22:08
Because the people that I tend to usually work with are very
00:22:11
much like me, which is hyper independent, thinking that I can
00:22:14
take it all on and do it all myself.
00:22:16
I can do it all.
00:22:17
I'm capable, I'm resourceful, I'm smart, I can figure it out.
00:22:21
But in these situations where maybe you are being constantly
00:22:25
triggered.
00:22:25
You're not operating from that prefrontal cortex right.
00:22:30
You're not making sound, logical, rational decisions
00:22:33
because you're being triggered.
00:22:35
So some of those decisions may end up being more reactive and
00:22:39
more emotional, which is not always going to be in your
00:22:42
highest investment.
00:22:43
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
00:22:44
So the team that I think people need.
00:22:45
It's like there's basic start here, but then it trickles down
00:22:50
to oh, okay, so you have assets, you have marital assets, you
00:22:54
have multiple properties, you have multiple investments,
00:22:58
there's 401ks, there's all these things, and so, yes, you need
00:23:02
financial support through that and somebody that understands
00:23:06
the divorce process.
00:23:07
And then it can even lead down to okay, we need a real estate
00:23:11
agent that understands divorce, because we may have to sell the
00:23:15
marital home or somebody's going to move eventually, so we need
00:23:22
someone that can understand what it looks like to get a divorce
00:23:25
and need to buy a new house.
00:23:26
And so there's all these resources that people don't even
00:23:33
know they need until they're in it.
00:23:36
And of course, I have those resources for my clients Like,
00:23:41
oh, here's a forensic evaluator, here's what is it?
00:23:44
A financial forensic evaluator?
00:23:46
Because oftentimes someone's hiding money it's usually the
00:23:51
abuser, so we have to find where the missing assets are.
00:23:55
And people often think this is super common and it's
00:24:00
frustrating.
00:24:01
But I understand they don't get it.
00:24:02
They want to keep the house.
00:24:05
Someone wants to keep the house .
00:24:07
My kids have grown up here and I can understand that.
00:24:13
It's an emotional attachment.
00:24:14
It's the emotional attachment, and so my role is to come in and
00:24:18
say I understand that you want the consistency for your
00:24:23
children.
00:24:23
You want them to be able to stay in the home and a house is
00:24:28
not a liquid asset.
00:24:29
So you're going to agree that he gets all the investments and
00:24:37
this 401k and this retirement plan and this savings, but
00:24:41
you're going to keep the house.
00:24:41
That's not a good idea and sometimes it's really nice to
00:24:48
leave the house and start fresh and you get to create your own
00:24:52
wonderful space that you know is safe for you and your kids.
00:24:55
That hopefully isn't bugged and these guys like to put hidden
00:25:02
cameras places.
00:25:03
So I just encourage clients to look at it from a different lens
00:25:08
if they can, that there's a benefit to not staying in the
00:25:14
house.
00:25:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it can be hard, because it is such an
00:25:19
emotional decision for a lot of people.
00:25:20
You don't want to burden yourself with the financial cost
00:25:24
of carrying a home on one income that you had been
00:25:28
previously supporting with potentially two incomes, or
00:25:31
perhaps the abusers income was the one that was really the one
00:25:34
that was supporting the family overall.
00:25:36
So don't get yourself into a situation.
00:25:39
Speaker 2: It gets so sticky, and so that's why, of course,
00:25:44
you want to have attorneys who understand the legalities of
00:25:47
these things and can work through some of that, because if
00:25:51
one person wants to stay in the house, the other person says,
00:25:53
fine, stay in the house, while the person that leaves I mean
00:25:57
the person that stays has to buy the person, the other person,
00:26:00
out.
00:26:00
So it gets really sticky.
00:26:02
But it's a lot of lessons, and unattachment and that's what I
00:26:06
work on too is we can't care about everything.
00:26:10
We can't show up to every fight we're invited to, like please
00:26:14
don't die on that hill, because it is not worth it.
00:26:16
So we have to pick the battles that really are worth it, like
00:26:21
our children's safety.
00:26:23
But who gets the blender?
00:26:24
Who cares?
00:26:25
There's a lot of things that you have to let go of that you
00:26:32
have to become neutral in, and I know firsthand how hard it is
00:26:38
to be neutral when you're getting a divorce and everything
00:26:43
feels exacerbated and your emotions are high about
00:26:48
everything and everything feels like a fight and you feel like
00:26:51
you have to show up to every fight because, well, who will
00:26:55
know who's right?
00:26:56
If you don't like, it's not even worth the fight.
00:27:01
Speaker 1: Right, and I think sometimes we engage in the fight
00:27:05
because we want to prove that we're validated.
00:27:09
And so it's interesting because , you know, a lot of my work is
00:27:13
dealing with women not necessarily so much that are
00:27:16
kind of going through the divorce process.
00:27:18
I kind of sometimes get them before they make that decision
00:27:21
or after, and a lot of the work that we do is around helping
00:27:28
them regulate their nervous system after being in this
00:27:33
constant fight or flight or freeze for so long, because
00:27:37
that's just what happens.
00:27:39
And so we just learn that we have to be defensive all the
00:27:42
time, because, number one, we don't want to feel like we're
00:27:45
going crazy.
00:27:46
We want to prove that we're not losing our minds and that we're
00:27:49
right and we've got all these reasons why.
00:27:53
But it's also it goes back to these, you know, kind of these
00:27:55
core wounds that we all hold, which is that I am, you know,
00:28:01
worthless, right, these core wounds of I'm worthless or I am
00:28:04
not important, or I am not valuable or I'm not lovable.
00:28:08
So when those wounds get triggered in these abusive
00:28:11
relationships, we try to do everything we can.
00:28:15
Sometimes we come up with these like coping strategies, and
00:28:16
sometimes it is just being defensive and we have to go and
00:28:19
fight every battle to prove that we are, because thinking or
00:28:24
believing that we're not is too painful, like spiritually that's
00:28:27
too painful, but somewhere along the lines we've had
00:28:31
experiences that made us believe that perhaps that is true.
00:28:34
So it's this perception of well , I have to fight to write
00:28:39
someone else's thinking about me and we have to detach from
00:28:42
actually caring anymore about what anyone else thinks about us
00:28:45
and realize and recognize that the only person's opinion that
00:28:48
matters is our opinion of ourselves.
00:28:52
Speaker 2: What childhood wound is being triggered?
00:28:56
When was the last time you felt unsafe?
00:28:59
When was the last time someone left you?
00:29:02
When was the last time you were abandoned?
00:29:05
And so we're not.
00:29:08
It's just kind of a fact.
00:29:10
We're not consciously thinking oh, this is similar to when I
00:29:14
was eight years old and I never saw my dad again.
00:29:17
We're thinking this is awful, this isn't what I thought.
00:29:21
You know, I thought I was getting married and it was gonna
00:29:23
be forever.
00:29:24
And they trigger that.
00:29:28
So then we were forced to deal with what happened to that
00:29:35
little girl.
00:29:37
And it's so extra painful and it's almost like an out of body
00:29:43
experience when you are in this fight or flight constantly and
00:29:49
you get the text message from your ex and it's some long,
00:29:53
crazy rant and you hear the ding and you feel it in your stomach
00:29:58
, you feel it in your gut and it comes up your chest.
00:30:01
You feel like you're gonna throw up.
00:30:03
And then you're reading it and then you're shaking, Physically,
00:30:08
your whole body is shaking and you're thinking I have to
00:30:12
respond.
00:30:13
I can't let him get away with that.
00:30:15
He can't talk to me like that when in reality he didn't say
00:30:19
anything that has anything to do with the kids.
00:30:22
He's simply telling you how ugly you are, what a horrible
00:30:28
person you are, how unlovable you are, and you think you have
00:30:35
to respond to that.
00:30:37
But me being the coach?
00:30:40
Okay.
00:30:41
Does this have anything to do with the kids?
00:30:43
No.
00:30:43
Does this need a response right now?
00:30:46
No.
00:30:47
Did he ask a question?
00:30:49
No.
00:30:51
So do you need to respond ever?
00:30:55
No, what do you do with it?
00:30:57
Oh, this is evidence, this is documentation, so then you can
00:31:03
talk yourself back and look at it from a different view.
00:31:07
So, of course, I tell my clients when they're working
00:31:09
one-on-one with me.
00:31:10
Send me examples of his email or his co-parenting message in
00:31:17
the co-parenting app.
00:31:18
Send me an example or a text message.
00:31:21
I wanna see how he talks to you so I can help you come up with a
00:31:26
way to respond, because sometimes no response is the
00:31:29
best response, and I'm sure you've learned this that if they
00:31:35
are toxic, potentially have a personality disorder, they're
00:31:41
poking you and they're baiting you and they're trying to hook
00:31:46
you into their fight and they want you to respond.
00:31:49
They are dying for you to respond.
00:31:52
Even better, if you respond and you start flipping out, if you
00:31:57
act crazy, then he gets to say see, she's crazy and that's
00:32:05
exactly what he wants, and then he wins.
00:32:07
So when you can learn how to not respond, or if you do
00:32:14
respond, it's your attempt to portray me in a negative light
00:32:18
is noted.
00:32:19
No response is the best response.
00:32:24
No response means your nervous system wins.
00:32:30
Speaker 1: Although I would say that I just wanna say, like I
00:32:34
wouldn't say, that just don't allow yourself to feel the
00:32:38
emotions that come with it.
00:32:39
Speaker 2: Oh no, feel it, you have to yeah yeah, feel it.
00:32:41
Speaker 1: Allow yourself to feel it.
00:32:42
Just don't allow that to cause you to react.
00:32:46
It can't take over.
00:32:47
It can't take over, yeah.
00:32:50
Speaker 2: You know when the emotion is building and like it
00:32:52
really does start in your gut.
00:32:54
That's why it's a gut reaction, right.
00:32:55
So it really does start in your gut and it moves up your body
00:33:00
and that's why you feel like you're gonna throw up and like
00:33:02
your ears get hot and you're just super tense and your
00:33:07
shoulders go like this up to your ears and we do have to feel
00:33:12
it, but we also have to know how to deal with it when it
00:33:18
comes up.
00:33:18
That's where I think the trauma informed therapist comes in,
00:33:23
because everyone deserves or coach.
00:33:28
Speaker 1: Or coach, like you have to have that support.
00:33:31
Speaker 2: You have to have somebody that can really
00:33:34
understand.
00:33:35
I know how painful this is.
00:33:37
Would you like some skills to talk yourself down when this
00:33:41
happens.
00:33:42
Speaker 1: So here's the thing.
00:33:43
So I'm gonna say something there that might be a little
00:33:45
controversial.
00:33:46
Oh, I like it.
00:33:48
We can't talk our way out of our feelings.
00:33:50
No, we can't feel our way out of our feelings and a lot of
00:33:54
times I think therapy is really good for talking things out, to
00:33:58
get validation, to maybe learn how to reframe thinking.
00:34:03
However, there's then a disconnect between the conscious
00:34:05
mind that's trying to reframe the thinking and our
00:34:09
subconscious beliefs, and what happens is the trauma actually
00:34:12
gets stored in the body, which is why I'm a somatic
00:34:15
relationship coach.
00:34:16
It's because I am in a trauma informed somatic relationship
00:34:19
coach because we have to learn how to heal the trauma in the
00:34:23
body and do somatic practices in order to release it.
00:34:27
So, you know, that's kind of where I work with my clients is
00:34:30
like they get triggered and I'm giving them the tools to help
00:34:33
them learn how to work with their body, giving them things
00:34:37
that they can do whether it's like a breathing technique or
00:34:40
whatever it might be to help them down, regulate their
00:34:43
nervous system, to get back into feeling that safe and grounded
00:34:46
way, as opposed to just like, oh , how do I make myself wrong for
00:34:49
thinking?
00:34:50
Speaker 2: what I'm thinking?
00:34:50
Speaker 1: Or how do I make myself wrong for feeling what
00:34:52
I'm feeling?
00:34:53
Because you're not wrong.
00:34:53
Your body is instinctually letting you know that something
00:34:56
is off.
00:34:57
It's letting you know that you're being triggered and
00:34:59
there's something, that there's a wound that needs to be tended
00:35:04
to in some way.
00:35:05
So how do I bring myself back to feeling safe, to allow myself
00:35:09
to feel these feelings and then understand where it's coming
00:35:13
from, so that the next time when I have this level of awareness
00:35:16
and I know what it feels like in my body when I'm triggered, I
00:35:19
can label and identify the emotions that are associated
00:35:23
with this trigger and I can identify the sensations in my
00:35:26
body, because oftentimes the sensations come first, before
00:35:30
we're able to process how we're actually feeling, and then what
00:35:33
we're thinking and then what we believe subconsciously might be
00:35:38
the perception that's being triggered in that moment.
00:35:40
So I just kind of want to throw that out there a little bit,
00:35:43
where I'm not saying therapy is a bad thing at all.
00:35:46
It 100% is something that everybody needs.
00:35:48
But I do believe that it's also really important to not only
00:35:51
work from a top down approach but also to work from the bottom
00:35:54
up as well with the body.
00:35:55
Speaker 2: So I agree completely .
00:35:56
So for me, nothing you said was controversial for me, because I
00:36:01
do want my clients to feel it.
00:36:03
Speaker 1: I don't want them to try to put it down, put bricks
00:36:09
on it and not feel it because it's gonna come back and it's
00:36:13
important to feel it because this is still a grieving process
00:36:17
.
00:36:18
Speaker 2: So you're reacting this way because it's still a
00:36:21
grieving process.
00:36:22
Like this is still very triggering and sometimes you
00:36:27
have to.
00:36:28
Well, I would say, with all of this, you have to embrace the
00:36:31
suck.
00:36:31
It all kind of sucks.
00:36:35
Speaker 1: You know we don't.
00:36:37
Speaker 2: I know there's so many people and I've been there
00:36:39
like there's a reason for everything, there must be a
00:36:43
lesson here, and sometimes it just sucks and there's no lesson
00:36:49
and you just have to okay, we're gonna be in the suck.
00:36:53
So yeah, feeling your feelings is hugely important.
00:36:57
I mean, I couldn't do the work I'm doing now if I didn't feel
00:37:03
all the feelings that have come up for the past 13 years and do
00:37:11
the work to get to a place that not everything triggers me.
00:37:15
I'm also in my 40s now, so thank God I've learned all these
00:37:20
things at this point.
00:37:20
But when you're really young, when you're 29, 30, getting a
00:37:26
divorce, you still don't know.
00:37:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think as you were talking, I was
00:37:33
thinking about like well, even how helpful would it be to have,
00:37:37
like, the diagnosis of the personality disorder?
00:37:39
I don't know where I cut my mind, just kind of went there
00:37:42
because for some people I feel like they need that as
00:37:46
validation.
00:37:47
Again, it's like that validating that it's not me, it's them
00:37:49
kind of thing that I'm not broken, that I'm not worthless,
00:37:53
I'm not the one who's not important or that I'm not the
00:37:55
one that's not lovable, it's them.
00:37:57
But I just would love to kind of say that getting that
00:38:00
diagnosis abuser is not necessarily going to be helpful
00:38:05
for you, even throughout this process, because so many people
00:38:09
don't even understand it.
00:38:10
And number one and number two there's no quick fix for that.
00:38:13
You know you can't just go in for a surgery to remove that
00:38:16
part of your brain or your personality to like fix it.
00:38:21
You know there's no medication or cure all for it either.
00:38:24
It requires a lot of work on their part and if they're not
00:38:28
aware or willing or able to do that work on themselves which
00:38:33
you know, we could talk about that.
00:38:35
Speaker 2: That's another episode.
00:38:36
That's another conversation.
00:38:37
Speaker 1: That's a whole other episode, but yeah, it doesn't
00:38:42
really help.
00:38:43
Speaker 2: The courts don't care .
00:38:43
And it's very interesting because there have been times
00:38:49
where I've heard oh, the exes has a diagnosis from a
00:38:55
psychologist because they had to do a parental responsibilities
00:38:59
evaluation.
00:39:00
So both parties had psyche valves done and it turns out he
00:39:05
was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.
00:39:08
Guess what?
00:39:09
The courts don't care, they still get 50 50.
00:39:13
The courts still think he can be a good dad, even though the
00:39:17
report says lacks empathy, cannot empathize with anyone.
00:39:24
So then you're like okay, well, I have the diagnosis.
00:39:26
Now what?
00:39:27
Nothing?
00:39:28
And if it's something like NPD, there's no, there's no cure,
00:39:34
there's no pill, there's no therapy.
00:39:38
There's other personality disorders.
00:39:41
You know, if it's bipolar, then if they're diagnosed they can
00:39:46
take medication to support them through that and that's
00:39:53
wonderful.
00:39:53
But oftentimes if somebody I mean they don't they don't go to
00:39:59
get diagnosed, they don't.
00:40:01
Maybe they have someone in their life that's pushing them,
00:40:04
saying, hey, you're being crazy and you need to go to the doctor
00:40:08
.
00:40:08
Maybe it's their new spouse that's like I'm going to leave
00:40:11
you unless you do this.
00:40:12
And then they do the thing and there's a diagnosis, but it
00:40:16
doesn't change much, you can't do anything with it.
00:40:18
It might have a slight validation, like I knew it.
00:40:23
Okay, now what?
00:40:25
I guess I move on with life.
00:40:26
And then when they act crazy, you know why?
00:40:31
Because, oh, he has a diagnosis .
00:40:33
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:40:34
But I'd also just say, like, if your abuser does not have a
00:40:38
diagnosis, that that doesn't mean that they're not exhibiting
00:40:41
all these traits either.
00:40:43
Speaker 2: I think that we can sometimes make ourselves crazy
00:40:44
too, thinking like, oh, maybe it's us Well, and that's what
00:40:48
they do is they're trying to make you look crazy, just like I
00:40:54
said, they want you to freak out so they can say See, I'm so
00:40:58
calm and cool and collected and she's a mess, and that part, of
00:41:05
course, is maddening, but it's part of the game.
00:41:08
And I know right now I'm sure you've experienced this that
00:41:12
narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder is like a
00:41:16
huge you know, it's a hot word right now and so people are
00:41:21
throwing it around just casually .
00:41:24
And I have to remind people, you know, we're not
00:41:29
psychologists, we can't diagnose these people.
00:41:32
And of course I would tell my clients don't ever say that,
00:41:40
like don't ever say out loud to anyone that he's a narcissist,
00:41:45
because you can't diagnose him.
00:41:47
A judge would be furious because unless you, you know,
00:41:54
did a psychological evaluation, you can't diagnose them.
00:41:57
So it's safer to say this person exhibits some of these
00:42:03
traits.
00:42:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, the patterns of behavior, because even like yes
00:42:08
, exactly, I say all the time like I don't like using the word
00:42:11
narcissist for that reason Because, first of all, I'd also
00:42:14
don't believe in like labeling people, you know, but it does
00:42:18
help us understand certain types of behavior that are associated
00:42:23
if you are familiar with that.
00:42:25
But absolutely 100%, like there are patterns of behavior that
00:42:30
you can very easily describe or point to.
00:42:33
That would help someone understand the type of person
00:42:36
that you're dealing with.
00:42:37
And really it's all about control.
00:42:38
So it's control like lack of empathy, you know, like those
00:42:41
are like the two key things I would say if you had to sort of
00:42:45
explain this to somebody else to have them really grasp the
00:42:48
understanding of what's going on in the home, you know.
00:42:51
And the other problem that I have is like the court system
00:42:53
really doesn't recognize emotional, psychological or
00:42:57
verbal abuse even as domestic abuse, and it is absolutely 100%
00:43:02
domestic abuse, or even coercive control, which is
00:43:06
another thing, and so we are starting to see some of the
00:43:10
states sort of bring it in the concept of coercive control.
00:43:14
I know that, yes, there's someone that I follow and she
00:43:18
has been keeping a surprise of kind of what's happening in the
00:43:21
legal systems and I believe it was California recently has
00:43:25
entertained, I think, and if they've not already signed it, I
00:43:28
think, that they have a law that incorporates and talks
00:43:32
about coercive control and how that is abuse and how that needs
00:43:36
to be taken into account when we are in these domestic
00:43:39
situations in court Right.
00:43:42
Speaker 2: I think there's a few states and of course I'm a DV
00:43:46
advocate.
00:43:47
I mean, how could I not be with what I'm in, what I do, what
00:43:51
I've been through?
00:43:52
And I'm in Colorado, so I focus pretty much on Colorado because
00:43:58
I can't focus on the whole country all the time.
00:44:01
So I focus a lot on Colorado and we don't have that law yet,
00:44:05
but I do think it's Colorado and there's been other states that
00:44:08
have passed coercive control laws.
00:44:10
I mean we have passed some laws here that we've passed Julie's
00:44:15
law and we've passed Kayden's law in Colorado, which is huge
00:44:19
for advocacy and DV work and it's meant to educate the family
00:44:25
court system on abusers and what it looks like and stop
00:44:31
giving custody to abusers, because I'm really tired of
00:44:36
seeing children end up not alive because of their abuser.
00:44:44
That's a whole other episode too .
00:44:45
But there are some changes and we have to celebrate the wins
00:44:53
that we get there as advocates, as survivors, as safe parents,
00:44:58
as women, because the epidemic of domestic violence and abusers
00:45:06
is.
00:45:07
It's just mind boggling to me.
00:45:10
It's really, really overwhelming sometimes at how
00:45:15
crazy the levels of abuse are right now and of course I get
00:45:20
way more information than most people because of the circles
00:45:23
I'm in.
00:45:23
Speaker 1: Right, right, right, but it's true.
00:45:26
I would love for us to end with .
00:45:28
How can listeners reach out to you?
00:45:30
We will have your contact info in the show notes, but if you
00:45:34
just want to direct us at least to your website and maybe your
00:45:36
social media handles, that would be really helpful.
00:45:40
Speaker 2: So I have, of course, my business Facebook and
00:45:44
Instagram page and it's Luminary Divorce Coaching.
00:45:48
So it would be at luminarydivorcecoaching it's a
00:45:52
picture of me, not my logo, so that people make the connection,
00:45:57
and my website is luminarydivorcecoachingcom so
00:46:03
they can find me there, and I'm always here for anyone that
00:46:08
wants to reach out, got questions, they want to do an
00:46:12
empowerment call with me to see what's my next step.
00:46:17
Are we a good fit?
00:46:18
How can you support me?
00:46:19
And that's a great first way to do that.
00:46:23
Speaker 1: Fantastic.
00:46:23
Well, thank you so much, rachel , for coming on and having this
00:46:27
conversation with me today.
00:46:29
I know that the listeners definitely got a lot out of it
00:46:32
and I'm really grateful to you for all the work that you're
00:46:35
doing, and I know that plenty of people are going to be reaching
00:46:39
out to you after listening to this conversation to get the
00:46:41
support that they need to help them through what is very much a
00:46:45
difficult time and a challenging time, and I love
00:46:49
that they have you as a resource .
00:46:50
So, thank you so much.
00:46:52
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
00:46:53
I am thrilled to be here and thrilled to speak, of course,
00:46:59
about what I do.
00:47:00
I think that I've heard so many women go.
00:47:03
I didn't even know that was a thing a divorce coach.
00:47:06
There's actually somebody that can help me through this.
00:47:10
That's not an attorney, not an attorney.
00:47:13
I'm less expensive than an attorney too, so that's helpful
00:47:18
and you know you deserve the support.
00:47:20
Women deserve the support.
00:47:24
Speaker 1: Absolutely 100%.
00:47:26
All right listeners.
00:47:27
Thank you so much for tuning in today.
00:47:29
Until next week, be well.
00:47:31
If you're hearing this message, that means you've listened all
00:47:35
the way to the end, and for that I am truly grateful.
00:47:37
If you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable, would you
00:47:41
mind leaving us a review?
00:47:42
Wherever you listen to podcasts and sharing it with others?
00:47:44
If you'd like to connect with me for one-on-one coaching or
00:47:47
human design reading, you can find me on my website or on
00:47:50
social media.
00:47:51
Also, if you have a topic you'd like me to discuss on a future
00:47:54
episode, please DM me.
00:47:56
Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of Stepping
00:47:59
into Meaningful Relationships.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Stepping into Meaningful
00:00:06
Relationships podcast.
00:00:07
I'm your host, carissa Stepp.
00:00:09
I'm a somatic, trauma-informed coach and narcissistic abuse
00:00:13
specialist.
00:00:13
This is a podcast for you if you are looking to improve your
00:00:17
most important relationship, the one you have with yourself, so
00:00:21
you can more meaningfully and deeply connect with those around
00:00:24
you.
00:00:24
This podcast will equip you with valuable tools, tips and
00:00:29
tricks essential for recovering from toxic relationships and
00:00:32
guide you towards cultivating healthy, fulfilling and intimate
00:00:36
connections with others.
00:00:37
But first, let's start with you .
00:00:39
I'm so excited you're here taking this powerful step
00:00:43
forward.
00:00:43
Thank you for tuning in.
00:00:45
Now let's get to today's episode.
00:00:47
Hey, hey, everyone.
00:00:54
Welcome back to another episode of Stepping into Meaningful
00:00:57
Relationships.
00:00:57
Today I am having the pleasure of chatting with Rachel Snow,
00:01:02
who is a divorce and custody coach specializing in
00:01:06
post-separation abuse and high-conflict cases.
00:01:08
She really understands what her clients face when dealing with
00:01:11
an abusive ex, because she's been dealing with
00:01:13
post-separation abuse for 13 years.
00:01:15
Rachel's also a mother to a 17-year-old daughter who she
00:01:19
mostly single parents.
00:01:20
So I am so excited, rachel, to have you on as a guest to chat
00:01:25
today about how we can protect ourselves, when we are dealing
00:01:30
with high-conflict divorces, from toxic people in our lives.
00:01:35
It feels like so many of us kind of go through the process
00:01:38
feeling very much alone and very confused and not really knowing
00:01:42
who to reach out to for support .
00:01:43
So I love that you're doing this work in the world and I'm
00:01:47
excited to kind of pick your brain for this conversation so
00:01:49
welcome.
00:01:51
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
00:01:52
I'm so excited to be here.
00:01:54
Speaker 1: When we talk about high-conflict divorce, what does
00:01:57
that look and feel like?
00:01:58
Because not everyone may even understand what that is,
00:02:02
especially if it's not something that they've experienced before
00:02:04
.
00:02:05
Speaker 2: Well, I think what happens in family court is
00:02:11
family court will diagnose a case as high conflict, but it's
00:02:18
not both parties that are high conflict.
00:02:20
It takes one person to make the divorce a high-conflict divorce
00:02:25
or the custody situation to be high conflict because of one
00:02:29
person, and typically the high-conflict individual is
00:02:35
abusive in some way.
00:02:36
So it could have been physical abuse and a lot of what we're
00:02:42
seeing now is coercive control abuse, and so we're seeing more
00:02:49
mental, emotional, spiritual, verbal abuse, and that person,
00:02:57
the abuser, is the one that makes it high conflict.
00:02:59
So it's really unfortunate that we have this title, or a
00:03:06
divorce will be labeled high conflict when it's not both
00:03:09
people, it's one abuser and it's one safe parent trying to do
00:03:14
everything they possibly can to keep them and their children
00:03:17
safe.
00:03:17
And because family court and the judges are completely
00:03:22
uneducated with what happens with domestic violence, they
00:03:26
just lump them into one category .
00:03:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, and for my listeners who have been in
00:03:35
relationships with, we'll say, narcissists, they very much can
00:03:39
probably understand how that even in the unraveling of the
00:03:44
relationship and going through that process, that of course the
00:03:47
abuse may not necessarily stop just because you've decided to
00:03:51
move forward with the process of ending that relationship
00:03:55
legally.
00:03:55
And the fact that you've been enduring post-separation abuse
00:04:00
for 13 years I mean that's a really long time to endure
00:04:05
something like that.
00:04:06
But I imagine that you've probably learned a lot of
00:04:12
strategies to deal with that to help you maintain your sanity.
00:04:17
Speaker 2: It's been a wild ride .
00:04:18
So we split up when my daughter was almost four.
00:04:23
We split up in August of 2010 and she turned four in September
00:04:30
of 2010.
00:04:31
So she was really little and the nutshell of our marriage was
00:04:36
.
00:04:36
It was pretty boring, dull boring.
00:04:37
There wasn't abuse, we didn't fight a lot.
00:04:42
But as soon as we separated it was like something flipped and
00:04:50
he just turned into this totally different person.
00:04:54
So I didn't know what I was dealing with until about 2013,
00:05:00
2014.
00:05:01
So we separated in 2010.
00:05:05
Our divorce was final in 2011.
00:05:07
He attempted to take custody of her in 2012.
00:05:11
It was denied and we never had 50-50.
00:05:15
I was always the primary parent , and so the post-separation
00:05:20
abuse was financial abuse refusing to reimburse for things
00:05:26
, refusing to pay for daycare, refusing to buy school supplies,
00:05:30
refusing to buy winter coats, refusing to help with anything.
00:05:37
I had actually filed for child support before anything was
00:05:41
filed for divorce because he was refusing to help out in any way
00:05:46
and I had to do something.
00:05:48
So we've modified child support a million times since 2010
00:05:54
because every time I did a new week out of raise I had to
00:05:57
modify.
00:05:58
And then another piece of post-separation abuse.
00:06:01
I have the post-separation abuse wheel.
00:06:03
I don't have it in front of me but people don't even know
00:06:07
that's a thing until I send it to my clients and they're like
00:06:10
what?
00:06:11
Yes, all of these things.
00:06:13
So part of the post-separation abuse is legal abuse, which can
00:06:17
be when they file motion after motion after motion with the
00:06:21
court.
00:06:21
And that's what I've experienced is he was constantly
00:06:25
filing motions to modify parenting.
00:06:28
He's tried to take custody twice.
00:06:31
It's been denied.
00:06:32
He filed contempt on me.
00:06:34
He wanted me in jail and it's been bizarre.
00:06:39
So I've made a ton of mistakes because I didn't know what I was
00:06:44
dealing with, I didn't have the support, I didn't have people
00:06:49
that understood what I was going through.
00:06:51
They very much wanted to understand what happened and why
00:06:57
he was acting like this all of a sudden and it wasn't until I
00:07:03
found one mom's battle on Facebook and started following
00:07:07
that that I realized oh, there's thousands, maybe millions of
00:07:13
other women experiencing this.
00:07:15
That was the first time I had heard narcissistic abuse.
00:07:19
I was like what is that?
00:07:20
And so once I finally found that page and felt like I had
00:07:25
some support, it started to make sense and pieces kind of fell
00:07:30
into place.
00:07:31
And not to say that he has NPD, because I'm not a psychologist,
00:07:35
but I do know what I was experiencing and I do know the
00:07:39
truth of the matter was it was abuse and it was aimed at me,
00:07:45
but it was really harming our child.
00:07:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's like.
00:07:49
The worst part is that the children become like the
00:07:51
collateral damage and the crossfire of all this.
00:07:54
If your daughter is the most important thing to you, he's
00:07:57
going to use her as a pawn, as a way to get you to succumb to
00:08:02
his will right To continue to exert some sort of control.
00:08:07
So when you mentioned that you didn't even realize or didn't
00:08:10
really experience the abuse until after the separation, were
00:08:15
there red flags beforehand that the abuse may have been going
00:08:21
on in the actual relationship before it ended?
00:08:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, did I miss all these red flags and all
00:08:28
these pieces?
00:08:29
And I've examined that a lot over the years.
00:08:33
I'm an overthinker, I'm anxiety , so of course I'm like, did I
00:08:38
miss something?
00:08:38
Was there something there that I didn't see?
00:08:40
I thought I was savvy with identifying red flags, but I
00:08:47
wasn't, and I still don't know that there was much there that
00:08:52
he was doing that was a red flag .
00:08:55
Now he was pretty complacent, Like he wouldn't fight with me,
00:09:02
and so you know I want to have a discussion, but he would never
00:09:06
have those hard conversations with me.
00:09:08
So I think that's a red flag.
00:09:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no emotional safety or intimacy in
00:09:14
that relationship if you can't have those hard conversations.
00:09:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I've again like, of course, I
00:09:21
think like where did I go wrong, what did I do?
00:09:25
And I wanted to take responsibility, because it's my
00:09:28
nature to take responsibility for my part.
00:09:30
So I do know that I settled.
00:09:35
I was really young, like we were really young.
00:09:40
We had no business getting married.
00:09:41
We met when we were 23.
00:09:43
We got married in 2005, but we were 24.
00:09:50
And then in 2006 is when my daughter was born, and so
00:09:54
everything happened really fast and we never built a foundation
00:10:00
for our relationship.
00:10:01
And then, yes, there was a.
00:10:03
There was red flags.
00:10:04
Now that I see them, now that I'm in my 40s, so what the red
00:10:08
flag was?
00:10:09
He was going through a divorce, he had been in Iraq and he was
00:10:19
army, and so his unit was one of the first to go into Iraq after
00:10:24
9-11.
00:10:25
And so I know he suffers from PTSD.
00:10:29
So there's, of course, that part of me that can completely
00:10:33
empathize, sympathize that he went through something.
00:10:38
I can't even have him.
00:10:39
However, he didn't want to address the PTSD and he didn't
00:10:45
want to get help and he didn't want to go to therapy, and I
00:10:49
think that's part of what shut him down.
00:10:51
And I don't know.
00:10:56
You know I'm guessing, like I'm making assumptions, which we
00:10:59
shouldn't do, but when you don't get any answers, you guess and
00:11:03
you make assumptions.
00:11:04
So, yeah, looking back, it's like, oh, don't get involved
00:11:09
with a man going through a divorce, and military is one of
00:11:16
the careers that is typically very, extremely abusive, and so
00:11:24
it's military, police officers, firefighters, attorneys, doctors
00:11:31
, pilots and it's where they have this importance.
00:11:36
You know they're important.
00:11:37
They have a lot of power because of that, and so they
00:11:42
often turn into abusers or they're already abusers.
00:11:45
Speaker 1: We're not making any blankets statements or judgments
00:11:47
, but I could see how potentially those occupations
00:11:52
can attract a certain type of person who has a need for
00:11:55
control.
00:11:56
Speaker 2: It's like with any occupation, right, there's the
00:11:59
small amount that make the whole look bad.
00:12:01
Yeah, so backtracking, yes, there were red flags, but I was
00:12:08
very young.
00:12:09
Nobody that I recall said to me oh, he's married, he's getting
00:12:14
a divorce, he's 23 and that's what's happening.
00:12:18
You should probably run, and I should have, but of course I
00:12:22
wouldn't have my daughter, and so it doesn't matter how much I
00:12:28
look at hindsight or do the shoulda, coulda, woulda, I had
00:12:33
to be in that relationship to have my daughter, because she
00:12:36
wouldn't be her with a different dad.
00:12:38
So that's the blessing that came out of it is I have this
00:12:42
really cool kid.
00:12:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that it's interesting
00:12:49
because, like the podcast episode that I released with
00:12:52
April Porter, one of my friends, we talked a lot about, you know
00:12:56
, grieving those toxic relationships that we get out of
00:13:00
, but part of the grieving process is also coming to a
00:13:03
place of forgiveness and gratitude as well for what we
00:13:07
learned through those experiences.
00:13:09
So, as much as it sucks and as much as it hurts you know, while
00:13:13
you're in it or as you're getting out of it, it really
00:13:16
provides us with an opportunity to sometimes really learn
00:13:21
something about ourselves that we didn't know before.
00:13:24
That's really important for us to understand in order to move
00:13:29
forward and actually create or be who it is that we want to be
00:13:35
or what it is that we want to create in this world and leave
00:13:38
behind as maybe our legacy or have the impact that we're here
00:13:41
to have in this lifetime.
00:13:43
So I love how you have essentially used all of your
00:13:47
pain as a way to now help empower other women so that they
00:13:53
don't make the mistakes that you've made, so that you can
00:13:56
provide the support even that you didn't get to have, and your
00:14:01
whole experience of all of you now get to provide that for
00:14:04
other women, and to me, like that's like a full circle moment
00:14:08
, like that's the reason why.
00:14:10
Speaker 2: Totally, I do say I've said it a lot is.
00:14:13
I want to be for my clients.
00:14:15
What I needed, I needed me there was no me.
00:14:19
I didn't have someone to say, oh , I get it.
00:14:23
I totally understand where you're coming from.
00:14:26
I understand it's crazy making.
00:14:29
I understand.
00:14:31
At the end of the day you feel like you're the crazy one and
00:14:35
you're exhausted and your nervous system is shot and you
00:14:41
don't know which end is up.
00:14:42
You don't know if you should just agree to everything and
00:14:46
sign the papers to be done, and it was so isolating it was.
00:14:53
You know, my friends didn't get it.
00:14:55
We were all young.
00:14:56
My friends are like what the hell is happening?
00:14:59
I don't understand any of this.
00:15:00
Like you guys just got married and had a baby and now all of a
00:15:04
sudden it's like, yeah, we shouldn't have gotten married.
00:15:08
Speaker 1: So, but I think even if your friends are older, I
00:15:10
mean, you know, I'm sure people still wouldn't understand like
00:15:13
wait, like what is he trying to do?
00:15:14
I don't understand.
00:15:15
That's not who.
00:15:16
I thought he was right Because a lot of times, even in these
00:15:19
relationships, like you know, people don't see the side of.
00:15:23
They didn't see the side of your acts that you experienced
00:15:26
behind closed doors.
00:15:28
So they just don't understand that it's even possible for
00:15:31
someone to maybe even be behaving in that way or to be so
00:15:35
calculated in how they're trying to manipulate the system
00:15:39
or to manipulate you.
00:15:40
Speaker 2: Yes, and I've known numerous women who they just say
00:15:45
I just want it over.
00:15:46
And I can say I understand and it will be, but you're still
00:15:53
going to have to deal with him until your children age out of
00:15:56
the system.
00:15:56
And so let's make sure that you are requesting the things that
00:16:05
you need to support you.
00:16:06
Let's make sure that your parenting plan is rock solid
00:16:11
until your children age out of the system so that when they
00:16:16
start middle school or high school, we're not running into
00:16:20
who pays for extracurricular activities?
00:16:22
Yeah, or oh, they're driving.
00:16:25
Who pays for driving school Because they have to do that?
00:16:29
And or the car.
00:16:30
Then there's a car, then there's insurance, there's all
00:16:33
these other things, and so it's just, I think, human nature.
00:16:38
We get very focused on the here and now, and unless you have
00:16:41
somebody by your side to say so, what do you want it to look
00:16:45
like in five years?
00:16:45
You know, in five years your kids are going to be 10 and 12.
00:16:50
What's that going to look like?
00:16:52
And until they have someone to talk them through that, they're
00:16:56
not thinking about it.
00:16:57
They want to say yes to everything, to have it be over,
00:17:01
and I strongly suggest they don't do that.
00:17:04
Don't say yes to everything and this is what we figure out when
00:17:09
they work with me is let's brainstorm together, let's
00:17:14
figure out the best possible outcome and the worst possible
00:17:18
outcome and let's really focus on you know, if you could wave
00:17:23
your magic wand, what would it look like?
00:17:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that because I feel, like a lot of
00:17:30
times, like one of the reasons or one of our patterns of
00:17:34
behavior that can sometimes lead us into these types of toxic
00:17:38
relationships is people pleasing , and so we will when we feel
00:17:43
unsafe.
00:17:44
There is a tendency to kind of lean back into that people
00:17:47
pleasing behavior in order to stay safe, right, in order to
00:17:51
continue to maybe even protect your children as well if they
00:17:55
are being used as pawns in the process, so that this abuse ends
00:17:59
.
00:17:59
But you know, I've even seen with my clients, even after the
00:18:04
paperwork is even finalized, that abuse can still continue if
00:18:09
you have to have contact with them, which, if you have kids,
00:18:12
surprise, surprise you still have to have contact with your
00:18:15
ex.
00:18:15
And so what do you do in order to minimize that conflict going
00:18:20
forward?
00:18:20
And it is making sure, to your point, that you're setting
00:18:24
yourself up for all of these other little things that are
00:18:26
going to come down the pike, that maybe are hard to see in
00:18:29
the moment, because you're trying to emotionally process
00:18:33
what happened and how you got there and all of that.
00:18:37
Speaker 2: Crazy time.
00:18:39
I mean, if someone's never been divorced, they don't get it.
00:18:43
If they've never dealt with somebody that potentially has a
00:18:46
personality disorder, they don't get it.
00:18:48
And until you're in it or you have someone to tell you, hey,
00:18:53
you need, you need a team, so you can't lone wolf this Getting
00:18:58
a divorce with someone that is creating a very high conflict
00:19:02
situation, you cannot do this alone and you have to create
00:19:08
your team.
00:19:08
You need a therapist that's most likely a trauma informed
00:19:12
therapist, because you're going through trauma.
00:19:15
This is traumatic.
00:19:16
You know you might be coming and you've been through trauma
00:19:21
before you've got to explain.
00:19:23
This is traumatic, but how traumatic was the relationship?
00:19:27
And often I have clients that don't even see that until they
00:19:32
have some separation and they realize I've been walking on
00:19:37
eggshells for 15 years.
00:19:40
I have been saying yes to everything he wanted.
00:19:42
For 15 years I just agreed to keep the peace and so now they
00:19:47
have to figure out who they are without this dictator and it's
00:19:52
terrifying.
00:19:54
And so I want my clients to have a trauma informed therapist
00:19:59
that they're seeing at least weekly in the beginning, if they
00:20:04
can, an attorney so they have legal representation that
00:20:09
understands what they're going through, that this isn't just an
00:20:13
amicable divorce and they're fighting over the dining room
00:20:16
table, that their ex is very high conflict and really wants
00:20:21
to fight about everything.
00:20:22
And then a coach, a consultant, someone that can hold your hand
00:20:29
through this process, and the person that gets it that's me
00:20:34
that can say I totally understand what you're going
00:20:37
through because I've lived it and these are the steps to take
00:20:44
and it's really a collaboration.
00:20:46
We're working together, we're brainstorming together to figure
00:20:49
out what the best strategy is for them and their children and
00:20:53
their family to get through this with some grace and safety,
00:21:02
maybe a little bit of sanity in the end, that they don't feel so
00:21:06
isolated and alone, that they know they have a rock solid team
00:21:10
to support them through this whole process.
00:21:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would probably just add one more team
00:21:18
member to that team and even if this is a cost upfront, it's
00:21:22
going to come back in the end which is hiring a certified
00:21:25
divorce financial analyst just to help you kind of understand
00:21:29
the financial picture, because I often find that women in these
00:21:33
situations there is financial abuse number one and number two
00:21:36
A lot of times they're not even fully aware of all of the assets
00:21:41
, potentially, or even all the liabilities, that are out there.
00:21:44
Because in order for you to make very informed decisions,
00:21:47
it's really important that you have someone working on your
00:21:49
side who can help you do the forensic accounting part of it,
00:21:53
to understand all of the pieces, and then help you even
00:21:57
understand kind of okay, well, what are you entitled to?
00:22:00
But I love all of that.
00:22:01
I just think that that's so helpful because a lot of times
00:22:04
people aren't thinking, well, where am I getting my support
00:22:07
from?
00:22:08
Because the people that I tend to usually work with are very
00:22:11
much like me, which is hyper independent, thinking that I can
00:22:14
take it all on and do it all myself.
00:22:16
I can do it all.
00:22:17
I'm capable, I'm resourceful, I'm smart, I can figure it out.
00:22:21
But in these situations where maybe you are being constantly
00:22:25
triggered.
00:22:25
You're not operating from that prefrontal cortex right.
00:22:30
You're not making sound, logical, rational decisions
00:22:33
because you're being triggered.
00:22:35
So some of those decisions may end up being more reactive and
00:22:39
more emotional, which is not always going to be in your
00:22:42
highest investment.
00:22:43
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
00:22:44
So the team that I think people need.
00:22:45
It's like there's basic start here, but then it trickles down
00:22:50
to oh, okay, so you have assets, you have marital assets, you
00:22:54
have multiple properties, you have multiple investments,
00:22:58
there's 401ks, there's all these things, and so, yes, you need
00:23:02
financial support through that and somebody that understands
00:23:06
the divorce process.
00:23:07
And then it can even lead down to okay, we need a real estate
00:23:11
agent that understands divorce, because we may have to sell the
00:23:15
marital home or somebody's going to move eventually, so we need
00:23:22
someone that can understand what it looks like to get a divorce
00:23:25
and need to buy a new house.
00:23:26
And so there's all these resources that people don't even
00:23:33
know they need until they're in it.
00:23:36
And of course, I have those resources for my clients Like,
00:23:41
oh, here's a forensic evaluator, here's what is it?
00:23:44
A financial forensic evaluator?
00:23:46
Because oftentimes someone's hiding money it's usually the
00:23:51
abuser, so we have to find where the missing assets are.
00:23:55
And people often think this is super common and it's
00:24:00
frustrating.
00:24:01
But I understand they don't get it.
00:24:02
They want to keep the house.
00:24:05
Someone wants to keep the house .
00:24:07
My kids have grown up here and I can understand that.
00:24:13
It's an emotional attachment.
00:24:14
It's the emotional attachment, and so my role is to come in and
00:24:18
say I understand that you want the consistency for your
00:24:23
children.
00:24:23
You want them to be able to stay in the home and a house is
00:24:28
not a liquid asset.
00:24:29
So you're going to agree that he gets all the investments and
00:24:37
this 401k and this retirement plan and this savings, but
00:24:41
you're going to keep the house.
00:24:41
That's not a good idea and sometimes it's really nice to
00:24:48
leave the house and start fresh and you get to create your own
00:24:52
wonderful space that you know is safe for you and your kids.
00:24:55
That hopefully isn't bugged and these guys like to put hidden
00:25:02
cameras places.
00:25:03
So I just encourage clients to look at it from a different lens
00:25:08
if they can, that there's a benefit to not staying in the
00:25:14
house.
00:25:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it can be hard, because it is such an
00:25:19
emotional decision for a lot of people.
00:25:20
You don't want to burden yourself with the financial cost
00:25:24
of carrying a home on one income that you had been
00:25:28
previously supporting with potentially two incomes, or
00:25:31
perhaps the abusers income was the one that was really the one
00:25:34
that was supporting the family overall.
00:25:36
So don't get yourself into a situation.
00:25:39
Speaker 2: It gets so sticky, and so that's why, of course,
00:25:44
you want to have attorneys who understand the legalities of
00:25:47
these things and can work through some of that, because if
00:25:51
one person wants to stay in the house, the other person says,
00:25:53
fine, stay in the house, while the person that leaves I mean
00:25:57
the person that stays has to buy the person, the other person,
00:26:00
out.
00:26:00
So it gets really sticky.
00:26:02
But it's a lot of lessons, and unattachment and that's what I
00:26:06
work on too is we can't care about everything.
00:26:10
We can't show up to every fight we're invited to, like please
00:26:14
don't die on that hill, because it is not worth it.
00:26:16
So we have to pick the battles that really are worth it, like
00:26:21
our children's safety.
00:26:23
But who gets the blender?
00:26:24
Who cares?
00:26:25
There's a lot of things that you have to let go of that you
00:26:32
have to become neutral in, and I know firsthand how hard it is
00:26:38
to be neutral when you're getting a divorce and everything
00:26:43
feels exacerbated and your emotions are high about
00:26:48
everything and everything feels like a fight and you feel like
00:26:51
you have to show up to every fight because, well, who will
00:26:55
know who's right?
00:26:56
If you don't like, it's not even worth the fight.
00:27:01
Speaker 1: Right, and I think sometimes we engage in the fight
00:27:05
because we want to prove that we're validated.
00:27:09
And so it's interesting because , you know, a lot of my work is
00:27:13
dealing with women not necessarily so much that are
00:27:16
kind of going through the divorce process.
00:27:18
I kind of sometimes get them before they make that decision
00:27:21
or after, and a lot of the work that we do is around helping
00:27:28
them regulate their nervous system after being in this
00:27:33
constant fight or flight or freeze for so long, because
00:27:37
that's just what happens.
00:27:39
And so we just learn that we have to be defensive all the
00:27:42
time, because, number one, we don't want to feel like we're
00:27:45
going crazy.
00:27:46
We want to prove that we're not losing our minds and that we're
00:27:49
right and we've got all these reasons why.
00:27:53
But it's also it goes back to these, you know, kind of these
00:27:55
core wounds that we all hold, which is that I am, you know,
00:28:01
worthless, right, these core wounds of I'm worthless or I am
00:28:04
not important, or I am not valuable or I'm not lovable.
00:28:08
So when those wounds get triggered in these abusive
00:28:11
relationships, we try to do everything we can.
00:28:15
Sometimes we come up with these like coping strategies, and
00:28:16
sometimes it is just being defensive and we have to go and
00:28:19
fight every battle to prove that we are, because thinking or
00:28:24
believing that we're not is too painful, like spiritually that's
00:28:27
too painful, but somewhere along the lines we've had
00:28:31
experiences that made us believe that perhaps that is true.
00:28:34
So it's this perception of well , I have to fight to write
00:28:39
someone else's thinking about me and we have to detach from
00:28:42
actually caring anymore about what anyone else thinks about us
00:28:45
and realize and recognize that the only person's opinion that
00:28:48
matters is our opinion of ourselves.
00:28:52
Speaker 2: What childhood wound is being triggered?
00:28:56
When was the last time you felt unsafe?
00:28:59
When was the last time someone left you?
00:29:02
When was the last time you were abandoned?
00:29:05
And so we're not.
00:29:08
It's just kind of a fact.
00:29:10
We're not consciously thinking oh, this is similar to when I
00:29:14
was eight years old and I never saw my dad again.
00:29:17
We're thinking this is awful, this isn't what I thought.
00:29:21
You know, I thought I was getting married and it was gonna
00:29:23
be forever.
00:29:24
And they trigger that.
00:29:28
So then we were forced to deal with what happened to that
00:29:35
little girl.
00:29:37
And it's so extra painful and it's almost like an out of body
00:29:43
experience when you are in this fight or flight constantly and
00:29:49
you get the text message from your ex and it's some long,
00:29:53
crazy rant and you hear the ding and you feel it in your stomach
00:29:58
, you feel it in your gut and it comes up your chest.
00:30:01
You feel like you're gonna throw up.
00:30:03
And then you're reading it and then you're shaking, Physically,
00:30:08
your whole body is shaking and you're thinking I have to
00:30:12
respond.
00:30:13
I can't let him get away with that.
00:30:15
He can't talk to me like that when in reality he didn't say
00:30:19
anything that has anything to do with the kids.
00:30:22
He's simply telling you how ugly you are, what a horrible
00:30:28
person you are, how unlovable you are, and you think you have
00:30:35
to respond to that.
00:30:37
But me being the coach?
00:30:40
Okay.
00:30:41
Does this have anything to do with the kids?
00:30:43
No.
00:30:43
Does this need a response right now?
00:30:46
No.
00:30:47
Did he ask a question?
00:30:49
No.
00:30:51
So do you need to respond ever?
00:30:55
No, what do you do with it?
00:30:57
Oh, this is evidence, this is documentation, so then you can
00:31:03
talk yourself back and look at it from a different view.
00:31:07
So, of course, I tell my clients when they're working
00:31:09
one-on-one with me.
00:31:10
Send me examples of his email or his co-parenting message in
00:31:17
the co-parenting app.
00:31:18
Send me an example or a text message.
00:31:21
I wanna see how he talks to you so I can help you come up with a
00:31:26
way to respond, because sometimes no response is the
00:31:29
best response, and I'm sure you've learned this that if they
00:31:35
are toxic, potentially have a personality disorder, they're
00:31:41
poking you and they're baiting you and they're trying to hook
00:31:46
you into their fight and they want you to respond.
00:31:49
They are dying for you to respond.
00:31:52
Even better, if you respond and you start flipping out, if you
00:31:57
act crazy, then he gets to say see, she's crazy and that's
00:32:05
exactly what he wants, and then he wins.
00:32:07
So when you can learn how to not respond, or if you do
00:32:14
respond, it's your attempt to portray me in a negative light
00:32:18
is noted.
00:32:19
No response is the best response.
00:32:24
No response means your nervous system wins.
00:32:30
Speaker 1: Although I would say that I just wanna say, like I
00:32:34
wouldn't say, that just don't allow yourself to feel the
00:32:38
emotions that come with it.
00:32:39
Speaker 2: Oh no, feel it, you have to yeah yeah, feel it.
00:32:41
Speaker 1: Allow yourself to feel it.
00:32:42
Just don't allow that to cause you to react.
00:32:46
It can't take over.
00:32:47
It can't take over, yeah.
00:32:50
Speaker 2: You know when the emotion is building and like it
00:32:52
really does start in your gut.
00:32:54
That's why it's a gut reaction, right.
00:32:55
So it really does start in your gut and it moves up your body
00:33:00
and that's why you feel like you're gonna throw up and like
00:33:02
your ears get hot and you're just super tense and your
00:33:07
shoulders go like this up to your ears and we do have to feel
00:33:12
it, but we also have to know how to deal with it when it
00:33:18
comes up.
00:33:18
That's where I think the trauma informed therapist comes in,
00:33:23
because everyone deserves or coach.
00:33:28
Speaker 1: Or coach, like you have to have that support.
00:33:31
Speaker 2: You have to have somebody that can really
00:33:34
understand.
00:33:35
I know how painful this is.
00:33:37
Would you like some skills to talk yourself down when this
00:33:41
happens.
00:33:42
Speaker 1: So here's the thing.
00:33:43
So I'm gonna say something there that might be a little
00:33:45
controversial.
00:33:46
Oh, I like it.
00:33:48
We can't talk our way out of our feelings.
00:33:50
No, we can't feel our way out of our feelings and a lot of
00:33:54
times I think therapy is really good for talking things out, to
00:33:58
get validation, to maybe learn how to reframe thinking.
00:34:03
However, there's then a disconnect between the conscious
00:34:05
mind that's trying to reframe the thinking and our
00:34:09
subconscious beliefs, and what happens is the trauma actually
00:34:12
gets stored in the body, which is why I'm a somatic
00:34:15
relationship coach.
00:34:16
It's because I am in a trauma informed somatic relationship
00:34:19
coach because we have to learn how to heal the trauma in the
00:34:23
body and do somatic practices in order to release it.
00:34:27
So, you know, that's kind of where I work with my clients is
00:34:30
like they get triggered and I'm giving them the tools to help
00:34:33
them learn how to work with their body, giving them things
00:34:37
that they can do whether it's like a breathing technique or
00:34:40
whatever it might be to help them down, regulate their
00:34:43
nervous system, to get back into feeling that safe and grounded
00:34:46
way, as opposed to just like, oh , how do I make myself wrong for
00:34:49
thinking?
00:34:50
Speaker 2: what I'm thinking?
00:34:50
Speaker 1: Or how do I make myself wrong for feeling what
00:34:52
I'm feeling?
00:34:53
Because you're not wrong.
00:34:53
Your body is instinctually letting you know that something
00:34:56
is off.
00:34:57
It's letting you know that you're being triggered and
00:34:59
there's something, that there's a wound that needs to be tended
00:35:04
to in some way.
00:35:05
So how do I bring myself back to feeling safe, to allow myself
00:35:09
to feel these feelings and then understand where it's coming
00:35:13
from, so that the next time when I have this level of awareness
00:35:16
and I know what it feels like in my body when I'm triggered, I
00:35:19
can label and identify the emotions that are associated
00:35:23
with this trigger and I can identify the sensations in my
00:35:26
body, because oftentimes the sensations come first, before
00:35:30
we're able to process how we're actually feeling, and then what
00:35:33
we're thinking and then what we believe subconsciously might be
00:35:38
the perception that's being triggered in that moment.
00:35:40
So I just kind of want to throw that out there a little bit,
00:35:43
where I'm not saying therapy is a bad thing at all.
00:35:46
It 100% is something that everybody needs.
00:35:48
But I do believe that it's also really important to not only
00:35:51
work from a top down approach but also to work from the bottom
00:35:54
up as well with the body.
00:35:55
Speaker 2: So I agree completely .
00:35:56
So for me, nothing you said was controversial for me, because I
00:36:01
do want my clients to feel it.
00:36:03
Speaker 1: I don't want them to try to put it down, put bricks
00:36:09
on it and not feel it because it's gonna come back and it's
00:36:13
important to feel it because this is still a grieving process
00:36:17
.
00:36:18
Speaker 2: So you're reacting this way because it's still a
00:36:21
grieving process.
00:36:22
Like this is still very triggering and sometimes you
00:36:27
have to.
00:36:28
Well, I would say, with all of this, you have to embrace the
00:36:31
suck.
00:36:31
It all kind of sucks.
00:36:35
Speaker 1: You know we don't.
00:36:37
Speaker 2: I know there's so many people and I've been there
00:36:39
like there's a reason for everything, there must be a
00:36:43
lesson here, and sometimes it just sucks and there's no lesson
00:36:49
and you just have to okay, we're gonna be in the suck.
00:36:53
So yeah, feeling your feelings is hugely important.
00:36:57
I mean, I couldn't do the work I'm doing now if I didn't feel
00:37:03
all the feelings that have come up for the past 13 years and do
00:37:11
the work to get to a place that not everything triggers me.
00:37:15
I'm also in my 40s now, so thank God I've learned all these
00:37:20
things at this point.
00:37:20
But when you're really young, when you're 29, 30, getting a
00:37:26
divorce, you still don't know.
00:37:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think as you were talking, I was
00:37:33
thinking about like well, even how helpful would it be to have,
00:37:37
like, the diagnosis of the personality disorder?
00:37:39
I don't know where I cut my mind, just kind of went there
00:37:42
because for some people I feel like they need that as
00:37:46
validation.
00:37:47
Again, it's like that validating that it's not me, it's them
00:37:49
kind of thing that I'm not broken, that I'm not worthless,
00:37:53
I'm not the one who's not important or that I'm not the
00:37:55
one that's not lovable, it's them.
00:37:57
But I just would love to kind of say that getting that
00:38:00
diagnosis abuser is not necessarily going to be helpful
00:38:05
for you, even throughout this process, because so many people
00:38:09
don't even understand it.
00:38:10
And number one and number two there's no quick fix for that.
00:38:13
You know you can't just go in for a surgery to remove that
00:38:16
part of your brain or your personality to like fix it.
00:38:21
You know there's no medication or cure all for it either.
00:38:24
It requires a lot of work on their part and if they're not
00:38:28
aware or willing or able to do that work on themselves which
00:38:33
you know, we could talk about that.
00:38:35
Speaker 2: That's another episode.
00:38:36
That's another conversation.
00:38:37
Speaker 1: That's a whole other episode, but yeah, it doesn't
00:38:42
really help.
00:38:43
Speaker 2: The courts don't care .
00:38:43
And it's very interesting because there have been times
00:38:49
where I've heard oh, the exes has a diagnosis from a
00:38:55
psychologist because they had to do a parental responsibilities
00:38:59
evaluation.
00:39:00
So both parties had psyche valves done and it turns out he
00:39:05
was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.
00:39:08
Guess what?
00:39:09
The courts don't care, they still get 50 50.
00:39:13
The courts still think he can be a good dad, even though the
00:39:17
report says lacks empathy, cannot empathize with anyone.
00:39:24
So then you're like okay, well, I have the diagnosis.
00:39:26
Now what?
00:39:27
Nothing?
00:39:28
And if it's something like NPD, there's no, there's no cure,
00:39:34
there's no pill, there's no therapy.
00:39:38
There's other personality disorders.
00:39:41
You know, if it's bipolar, then if they're diagnosed they can
00:39:46
take medication to support them through that and that's
00:39:53
wonderful.
00:39:53
But oftentimes if somebody I mean they don't they don't go to
00:39:59
get diagnosed, they don't.
00:40:01
Maybe they have someone in their life that's pushing them,
00:40:04
saying, hey, you're being crazy and you need to go to the doctor
00:40:08
.
00:40:08
Maybe it's their new spouse that's like I'm going to leave
00:40:11
you unless you do this.
00:40:12
And then they do the thing and there's a diagnosis, but it
00:40:16
doesn't change much, you can't do anything with it.
00:40:18
It might have a slight validation, like I knew it.
00:40:23
Okay, now what?
00:40:25
I guess I move on with life.
00:40:26
And then when they act crazy, you know why?
00:40:31
Because, oh, he has a diagnosis .
00:40:33
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:40:34
But I'd also just say, like, if your abuser does not have a
00:40:38
diagnosis, that that doesn't mean that they're not exhibiting
00:40:41
all these traits either.
00:40:43
Speaker 2: I think that we can sometimes make ourselves crazy
00:40:44
too, thinking like, oh, maybe it's us Well, and that's what
00:40:48
they do is they're trying to make you look crazy, just like I
00:40:54
said, they want you to freak out so they can say See, I'm so
00:40:58
calm and cool and collected and she's a mess, and that part, of
00:41:05
course, is maddening, but it's part of the game.
00:41:08
And I know right now I'm sure you've experienced this that
00:41:12
narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder is like a
00:41:16
huge you know, it's a hot word right now and so people are
00:41:21
throwing it around just casually .
00:41:24
And I have to remind people, you know, we're not
00:41:29
psychologists, we can't diagnose these people.
00:41:32
And of course I would tell my clients don't ever say that,
00:41:40
like don't ever say out loud to anyone that he's a narcissist,
00:41:45
because you can't diagnose him.
00:41:47
A judge would be furious because unless you, you know,
00:41:54
did a psychological evaluation, you can't diagnose them.
00:41:57
So it's safer to say this person exhibits some of these
00:42:03
traits.
00:42:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, the patterns of behavior, because even like yes
00:42:08
, exactly, I say all the time like I don't like using the word
00:42:11
narcissist for that reason Because, first of all, I'd also
00:42:14
don't believe in like labeling people, you know, but it does
00:42:18
help us understand certain types of behavior that are associated
00:42:23
if you are familiar with that.
00:42:25
But absolutely 100%, like there are patterns of behavior that
00:42:30
you can very easily describe or point to.
00:42:33
That would help someone understand the type of person
00:42:36
that you're dealing with.
00:42:37
And really it's all about control.
00:42:38
So it's control like lack of empathy, you know, like those
00:42:41
are like the two key things I would say if you had to sort of
00:42:45
explain this to somebody else to have them really grasp the
00:42:48
understanding of what's going on in the home, you know.
00:42:51
And the other problem that I have is like the court system
00:42:53
really doesn't recognize emotional, psychological or
00:42:57
verbal abuse even as domestic abuse, and it is absolutely 100%
00:43:02
domestic abuse, or even coercive control, which is
00:43:06
another thing, and so we are starting to see some of the
00:43:10
states sort of bring it in the concept of coercive control.
00:43:14
I know that, yes, there's someone that I follow and she
00:43:18
has been keeping a surprise of kind of what's happening in the
00:43:21
legal systems and I believe it was California recently has
00:43:25
entertained, I think, and if they've not already signed it, I
00:43:28
think, that they have a law that incorporates and talks
00:43:32
about coercive control and how that is abuse and how that needs
00:43:36
to be taken into account when we are in these domestic
00:43:39
situations in court Right.
00:43:42
Speaker 2: I think there's a few states and of course I'm a DV
00:43:46
advocate.
00:43:47
I mean, how could I not be with what I'm in, what I do, what
00:43:51
I've been through?
00:43:52
And I'm in Colorado, so I focus pretty much on Colorado because
00:43:58
I can't focus on the whole country all the time.
00:44:01
So I focus a lot on Colorado and we don't have that law yet,
00:44:05
but I do think it's Colorado and there's been other states that
00:44:08
have passed coercive control laws.
00:44:10
I mean we have passed some laws here that we've passed Julie's
00:44:15
law and we've passed Kayden's law in Colorado, which is huge
00:44:19
for advocacy and DV work and it's meant to educate the family
00:44:25
court system on abusers and what it looks like and stop
00:44:31
giving custody to abusers, because I'm really tired of
00:44:36
seeing children end up not alive because of their abuser.
00:44:44
That's a whole other episode too .
00:44:45
But there are some changes and we have to celebrate the wins
00:44:53
that we get there as advocates, as survivors, as safe parents,
00:44:58
as women, because the epidemic of domestic violence and abusers
00:45:06
is.
00:45:07
It's just mind boggling to me.
00:45:10
It's really, really overwhelming sometimes at how
00:45:15
crazy the levels of abuse are right now and of course I get
00:45:20
way more information than most people because of the circles
00:45:23
I'm in.
00:45:23
Speaker 1: Right, right, right, but it's true.
00:45:26
I would love for us to end with .
00:45:28
How can listeners reach out to you?
00:45:30
We will have your contact info in the show notes, but if you
00:45:34
just want to direct us at least to your website and maybe your
00:45:36
social media handles, that would be really helpful.
00:45:40
Speaker 2: So I have, of course, my business Facebook and
00:45:44
Instagram page and it's Luminary Divorce Coaching.
00:45:48
So it would be at luminarydivorcecoaching it's a
00:45:52
picture of me, not my logo, so that people make the connection,
00:45:57
and my website is luminarydivorcecoachingcom so
00:46:03
they can find me there, and I'm always here for anyone that
00:46:08
wants to reach out, got questions, they want to do an
00:46:12
empowerment call with me to see what's my next step.
00:46:17
Are we a good fit?
00:46:18
How can you support me?
00:46:19
And that's a great first way to do that.
00:46:23
Speaker 1: Fantastic.
00:46:23
Well, thank you so much, rachel , for coming on and having this
00:46:27
conversation with me today.
00:46:29
I know that the listeners definitely got a lot out of it
00:46:32
and I'm really grateful to you for all the work that you're
00:46:35
doing, and I know that plenty of people are going to be reaching
00:46:39
out to you after listening to this conversation to get the
00:46:41
support that they need to help them through what is very much a
00:46:45
difficult time and a challenging time, and I love
00:46:49
that they have you as a resource .
00:46:50
So, thank you so much.
00:46:52
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
00:46:53
I am thrilled to be here and thrilled to speak, of course,
00:46:59
about what I do.
00:47:00
I think that I've heard so many women go.
00:47:03
I didn't even know that was a thing a divorce coach.
00:47:06
There's actually somebody that can help me through this.
00:47:10
That's not an attorney, not an attorney.
00:47:13
I'm less expensive than an attorney too, so that's helpful
00:47:18
and you know you deserve the support.
00:47:20
Women deserve the support.
00:47:24
Speaker 1: Absolutely 100%.
00:47:26
All right listeners.
00:47:27
Thank you so much for tuning in today.
00:47:29
Until next week, be well.
00:47:31
If you're hearing this message, that means you've listened all
00:47:35
the way to the end, and for that I am truly grateful.
00:47:37
If you enjoyed this episode and found it valuable, would you
00:47:41
mind leaving us a review?
00:47:42
Wherever you listen to podcasts and sharing it with others?
00:47:44
If you'd like to connect with me for one-on-one coaching or
00:47:47
human design reading, you can find me on my website or on
00:47:50
social media.
00:47:51
Also, if you have a topic you'd like me to discuss on a future
00:47:54
episode, please DM me.
00:47:56
Be sure to tune in next week for another episode of Stepping
00:47:59
into Meaningful Relationships.